Rough summary of thorubos discussion

I've been charged with the task of summarizing our Thorubos discussion last night. I don't remember everything said, but hopefully the sketch below will trigger your memories so we can continue the conversation.

• Pacifism - will also be scarred by sin, like militarism. Who suffers the most when I choose to be a pacifist - myself or those poor people in _____?
  

• The cross and suffering are likely outcomes for those who choose a route of social change that challenges the Powers. The church joins in the suffering of those in Sudan, Iraq, and Rwanda. We must deliberately participate in their suffering.
  

• How does renewal (in the broadest sense) happen? Can people work toward redemption? God does the work/has done the work in Christ. Paradox: God does it/has done it/we do it.
  
  
• Can renewal happen through fallen means? Yes, our means will be always fallen - even pacifism. But before saying that, Christ's work on the cross comes first. That is, we strive to be Christlike first; then we acknowledge that our very best efforts are tinged with the very worst sins. Niehbur: "irony" --> whenever Christians try to create an ideal society, we screw it up.
  
  
• Some people raised questions about Yoder's biblical interpretation.